AI in Legal Services: Client Outcomes and Human Judgment | Mark Williams

Transcript from the video's English captions, lightly formatted for readability. Automatic captions may contain transcription errors.

Hello everyone and welcome to the enterprise AI podcast by Orvera AI where we speak with business leaders and operators about how AI technology and better workflows are shaping the future of enterprise service delivery. Today I am joined by Mark Williams, CEO of Magna Legal Services. Mark brings deep experience in legal services and litigation support and has a strong perspective on how the industry is evolving, how client expectations are changing, and where can we make a meaningful impact while still preserving the importance of human judgment, accuracy, and trust. Mark, thank you for joining me today. to start off, could you please briefly share your professional journey

and how your experience has shaped the way you think about legal services and litigation support?

Yeah, sure, Ali. Well, first, it's a honor to be here with you. You've been a great partner in business and a friend. So, it's a privilege to be here with you today. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah. So I have been my entire career in legal services, legal technology, legal support. Spent about 17 years of my career at a large global law firm, DA Piper. Spent eight, nine years of my career outside the United States, a lot of it in Asia and the Middle East. Had a business in India at one point. So I've really been all over the legal landscape. And now for the

last um I don't know 17 years or so. So about half my career I've been leading legal technology, legal support services businesses really all over the spectrum from eiscocovery to document review to staffing and then joined Magna uh in 2019 and Magna today is in deposition services which includes court reporting, records retrieval, um language services. We're the largest jury and trial consulting company in the United States. We're a major player in the records retrieval area as you know and investigations and service of process and again it's been an honor to partner with you in some of these endeavors too. So that's that's kind of my

journey and technology has been a critical part of it and as I've seen technology change over the last 30 years it's been nothing short of remarkable um let alone the last two years of course. appreciate the kind words and yeah you know particularly since I have known you for so many years I was very excited for this one because I feel me as well as the viewers will be able to you know gain a lot from such a diverse experience it's not just across industries geographies right which makes it very exciting so let's dive into it directly into you know AI the theme of everything

these days right

that's for sure yeah

yeah [laughter] there is no conversation right now that happens without AI these days.

So a lot of AI conversations as we discuss they are focused on cost efficiency right but you know I think one of the bigger opportunity in how this technology can improve things is service quality responsiveness and the overall experience especially in complex legal support workflows where do you see the biggest opportunities there that AI can bring in?

Yeah, I agree with you. People think of AI and and generally think of legal support services and they often think of you know how can I save money and saving money is important. It is and I think that you know we at Magna do that for our clients but I think often times people forget that in legal services and especially the dispute side or litigation landscape. It's about how do we help our clients win? How do we help them win? How do we make them more successful? How do we give them a better outcome for their case? Right? So, technology has become a critical part

of that. And we at Magna have moved and continue to move from being a provider of transcripts and deposition services and records retrieval and investigations and service of process to how do we take the client's data and provide them insight into that data to help them win their case to help them have a better it's not always a win to help them have a better case outcome to decide whether they want to invest in that case. How do we do all that? And part of that is a better client experience too at the same time.

True. No, I think we also echo the thought that you know when we started off with you know our AI initiatives for our partners while we knew that you know obviously AI will substantially impact costs. The more exciting part was you know especially in the legal industry where you know it is about time and you know the quality of things that we do and the outcomes can literally not figuratively vary by millions and I think what we seen in the past technologies I have seen is that you know other technologies took time to catch up this one is kind of been adopted really quickly and

I think one of the reasons is because enterprises and companies and legal firms they kind of recognize that you know this has a massive impact on the results let you know while surely on the financial part of it. So I agree on that thought. I you know I agree Ali it it does it has a massive impact and and you know part of it for us and you know some of our competitors too is how do we embed technology and it's not all AI right sometimes our engineering team likes to remind us it's not all AI sometimes it's other kinds of technology but how do

we embed technology to give our employees a better experience our clients a better experience again you know a better outcome and utilize it in ways that you know change the workflow and right the holy grail which we think we'll do right is hopefully more insight better outcome better experience for lower cost right that's really kind of the or just providing real value to the clonians

yeah absolutely yeah I think one important point that you touched upon on there which a lot of times you know we miss is all this technology especially you know powered by AI it gives you a lot of inside the data And you know in legal domain that has the highest leverage while in other industries does has leverage but this has massive leverage you know where you can quickly find insight from all the massive data I mean at the end of the day it's that's what we do right all data management in a way so makes sense

exactly exactly

so I'm curious you know with your wide experience and you know I think you will be particularly in a good position to answer this very important question and you know viewers would want to know this from you. Rick in your understanding what does a strong client experience look like in such a complex industry as legal where you know accuracy, responsiveness and most importantly trust are very critical. What does a good strong client experience look like?

Yeah. So uh I mean for sure you just saying three of them in legal in any area but for sure in legal you know accuracy responsiveness I mean I'm maniacal unresponsiveness trust are critical I don't link those to technology I think they can be enhanced through technology and I think the client needs to know that if they're using your technology or technology supported products that it's secure it's safe can be trusted it's accurate so it certainly links at technology, but separate and aside from technology, a great client experience includes all that for sure. And we want to be thought of as a partner to our

clients, right? And I know that is the typical thing to say, but we really do. We want to be able to provide them the life cycle of needs for their dispute. doesn't mean we're doing everything for them on it, but where it fits and where it makes sense that we can add particular value through the life cycle from serving process to an investigation to depositions or a mock trial. We want to try to bring them into our ecosystem and be part of their life cycle as a trusted partner. So bringing that back to technology, part of that is again how do we see links between

the data that can help them that they may not be able to see on their own or can just make their job easier. If we can help a lawyer, you know, condense their job from I need to spend six hours on this to I need to spend two hours on it because Magna's just given me information or documents or help me do my job better and faster. Um I think that's all the part of the client experience. So what I'm understanding is while a lot of things are important especially in your experience clients value speed the most whether it be responsiveness or the speed of

execution. Uh well I think it depends what you mean by speed right I think responsiveness is always critical for any relationship for me is you know friends family business you know I think it's respectful to be responsive we certainly want to meet clients needs where they are so if they need speed we can definitely give that to them but not every client needs speed and I think sometimes it's you know again if they need speed we'll give it to them but it could be more about accuracy insight you know providing a full suite of what they need. Sometimes that can be more important than speed

is just making sure we do a great job. So like when we're doing a mock trial, you know, it's it's usually less about getting the mock trial done fast and more about doing a great mock trial where we can provide, you know, our clients with data or, you know, presentation graphics. When we're helping our clients tell a story of their case, it might be less about speed and more about, you know, the graphics and the story we're helping them tell or or prepping a witness or any of that. Certainly, we have some needs like in records retrieval, we need these records right away and you

know, then it is more about speed.

Got it. All right. So would it be correct to say that you know it is dependent on the customer's need the partners' need their use case that you are or the service particularly that you're providing and you have to kind of lean a little bit on the customization side depending on Exactly. So one size doesn't fit all is what I'm hearing.

You know what Ali that's it's a great topic as a you know CEO and operator which you are too. We do lean into customization. We do want to give the clients what they need. We do want to meet the clients where they are. We've become a larger and larger business. You know, we're in 50 states and you know, keep growing and growing, which is terrific. At scale, there gets to be a balance. How do we provide efficiency, right? And when I say efficiency, we do want to provide low cost to our clients. We want to be cost competitive, low cost. Sometimes part of low cost

is some standardization. So we try to balance where can we standardize so that we can provide clients with low cost efficiency responsiveness all that comes through standardization at the same time giving clients what they need and customizing around them. go it makes sense and I can correlate to what you are saying because as you mentioned you know since we are you know partner on a few things you know while everyone says it's a basically a cliche that everyone says we want to give the partner what they want but I've really seen you know Magna because we are on the inside we have seen you know

that you can see you some you know great man has said right that you know actions speak louder than words and I've seen that with Magna you know that the actions are absolutely aligned to the midlevel managers that they want to do right by the customer. So I kind of correlate what you are saying over there.

Yeah, you know you're right. Actions are louder than words and you know it goes back to what we're talking about earlier which is being a partner with your clients right where we're where you know a client might make a request and hopefully we're trusted partner. We can have a dialogue with them and say you know what what do you really need? Like what are you trying to achieve? You know here's another way to do it. Here's a better way to do it. we can do it exactly the way you asked but you know we want to be a partner in that dialogue so we can

help them and you know it's again it's not one sizefits-all some matters some clients are you know I need the lowest cost that's the most important thing which we respect other times it's not about that it's this is a extremely high stakes piece of litigation and we need to do whatever we need to do to get the data to achieve a better outcome so yeah it's definitely not oneizefits-all you know you asked me about my career journey you know, I can understand that because I've been in all the seats, right? As a client, as a lawyer, as a provider and and yeah, again, we need

to meet the client clients where they are.

No, I think that's genuinely for a I don't know better way to put it. You know, it's a superpower to have that your leader within an organization has seen both sides of it because I always give this example that, you know, I saw my sister with my father and I understood that, you know, daughters mean a lot to their father. But once I had a daughter, I really knew and these are two very different things.

Well, having two daughters, I totally understand that. Yes. Absolutely. Agreed.

I mean, you know, it's an understatement to say that they mean a lot to you.

Yes. Right. We're we're we're aligned as usual Ali.

Yeah. Now, you know, switching gears, I think in life, everything is about balance, right? Anything extreme is not good. And same goes for the balance between AI and human expertise and judgment. So tell me this in your you know experience where do you think technology and AI can help improve the experience for clients and internal teams while you know we are not also losing the importance of that human expertise and judgment where still AI has not reached actually. Yeah, you know, you're raising a lot of complex topics today, Ali. [laughter] Uh, and this is this is one of them. You know, the technology, as we

all know, is changing so fast, right? Is just changing so fast. So, I think human judgment, having a human in the loop is critical. Um, but it doesn't mean the same thing today that it did, you know, a year ago that it will probably mean a year from now. M so one of the words we like to use a lot in magnets evolution is how do we evolve to stay current with our clients with our employees um with the market with technology. So for example, in our digital court reporting, we very much believe in having a human in the loop. A human who's the custodian

of the record, a human who's validating, swearing in the witness, you know, signing off on the transcript. That doesn't mean there's not a very important role for technology and AI, which is embedded in our digital court reporting workflow. So when we think of think about the workflow whether it's court reporting or or records retrieval or jury and trial consulting or whatever it is again about how do we embed technology but always have a human in the loop at the right point so that we're optimizing and maximizing human judgment with the power of technology. Like I said at the beginning I I think it it changes

it changes you know it's often changing so we need to evolve with it.

Got it. That makes sense. And that's why you know I know this is a very complex question because how do you kind of how do you explain balance right and but you know I wanted to kind of leverage your experience because this is what we get asked in most of our implementations that you know how will you balance that and I think you know the answer lies within the leadership teams on both sides that you know what AI can I we say that you know wherever AI can improve the experience that's where we use AI And we don't try to push AI on the places

where you know it might decrease the overall experience of internal teams or you know external customers and we be very you know cognizant about the fact of how we are doing this. Hence you know when we deploy you have observed this way do it you know in a stepwise manner. Let's see don't something new use case some new use case is there we don't get too deep into it immediately. we just test the waters with one foot in and you know kind of understand okay uh this works this doesn't work for us so I think you know

yeah I think I think incremental is often a you know prudent way to go and when we talk about balance between technology and a human in loop there's another aspect within legal that's important which is compliance with law right so we need to always make sure we're complying with all the statutes all the legislation which can be different in 50 different states within the United States let alone different countries and is defensible in court, right? You know, often times historically technology is ahead of the courts, right? So, you know, that's something we always need to keep in mind too is is whatever we are providing

to our clients, we need to make sure that it is defensible in court and in compliance with all law. So, sometimes again the technology can be ahead of that. So, that's another part of our balancing. So when it comes to balance you know let me change gears over there and ask you this is a very you know important questions that really helps you know our peers in the industry. So from your wide experience how do you approach choosing a partner for you know the new technology that you are trying to implement. I've been the CEO of a services company for 18 years now and you

know I have been promised stars in demos and then you know I have faced real challenges and it particularly becomes very difficult when you know you it's okay to lose some money but it's very difficult to face your partners you know when their work is at stake so tell me this you know how do you approach choosing partners for deploying new technology what do you look look for in them

yeah I mean of course it depends on the need the first thing that comes to mind is security, right? In today's world, you know, data security is such a challenging topic because as AI has gotten better, it's also helped the threat actors get better at utilizing AI. So having partners that care as much as we do about security and can validate that care is critical. And then you know partners again that are are evolving again with technology needs because that is constantly changing today. So we want partners who are changing with it because we're often relying on them. And then you know there's also uh

you know relationship matters right and so you know when we have a partner like you Ali who you know I trust and I feel like if I called you with a challenge or problem you'd pick up the phone, you'd be responsive. you'd be honest, you'd be direct and you'd try to work with us as a partner and you know that matters too and that's just not not only from the leader of the organization but the way that flows throughout the organization. So having an organization that and this is not unique to technology that you know again as a trusted partner we want to be that

to our clients and we want our our partners to be that to us.

Makes sense actually. All right, tell me this. You know, let's say if you are deploying, let's get a little more practical, right? You're deploying a new technology. What does a proof of concept look like to you? Like, you know, what would you expect in a proof of concept?

Yeah. Well, you know, again, it depends on the product and and I say product, but we're working hard to embed technology in our internal workflows that are not external products, but also our external face products. And we have really added a lot of talent to our organization in the last couple years. You know, we've added, I don't know, 20 or 30 people in that group alone that are focused on technology, engineering, product, security. So again, we continue to evolve. So it depends with proof of concept if it's internal or external. But if it's an external product, we want our product managers to validate it and

sign off that it has the needs for the use case that it's ready for prime time for our to help provide value to our clients and we want our engineering and technology team to you know validate that it's you know safe and secure. In our situation more often than not it's technology combined with a human in the loop and workflow you know that's that's embedded together. I think and again I can correlate there that security is the main you know agenda at Magna. Well, it's it it's table stakes, right? I mean, the security it's not really anything special or value ad. It's just but it

has to be there, right? For for any Yeah. Right. True.

Yeah. I think and it it does make a lot of sense given especially the industry that we are in that you know security is of the essence. We have health information that we are managing, protected health information,

right?

You know, another thing that's interesting about proof of concept and our products today is it's a lot of it's new. So clients don't necessarily know what they don't have, right? Because it they're products that we're creating, inventing, introducing to the market that did not previously exist. And that's an interesting inflection point, too, because it's not just that we're saying here's a commodity that you've been buying for 10 years. Here's something new that didn't exist yesterday. So that's a you know in terms of proof of concept and you know minimal viable product is testing these with our clients and our clients again as partners in that

development and evolution so that we're building products that are valuable and helpful to them but they don't always know what they are today because they didn't exist.

Makes sense. Well that's a good insight actually. All right, I guess we are nearing the end. So, you know, I'll just skip to much more insightful important questions. So, looking ahead, right? You know, what changes do you think legal services and litigation support leaders should be preparing for in the next few years?

Yeah. So it's I don't think there's going to be anything too insightful about my answer which is that this march of technology and AI our subject today is going to continue um you see a new release it feels like every day and um I think we need to be open again I keep using this word evolving but open to evolving rapidly with it and I feel like for Magna but also our competitors I think if you don't evolve you're you lose you're on, you're out. I think there's room for more than one company to evolve, but you need to be open to the dramatic changes

that have come over the last couple years and that may continue to come. Again, we need to balance it. We need to balance it with, in our case, defensibility in court and law, but you need to be open to evolving with changes in technology. And if you don't, I think you'll become extinct. So we are committed to having talent and culture that embraces changes that we've seen today but changes that are yet to come. That's such a practical insight actually because when I ask this question a lot of time there's a lot of prediction which is good you know it helps put new things into

perspective but this is such a great practical answer that just keep your eyes open watch new adapt quickly because I agree you know I have a similar approach you don't know what these you know hyperscalers are going to come up with tomorrow and you have to

you have to just rework your strategy immediately

right and that is an interesting observation and I hadn't thought about it that way, but I I hesitate to try to predict what's coming out tomorrow because I I don't know. But what I do know is that we need to be an organization that culturally, structurally organizationally from a talent perspective is open and ready to embrace it and utilize it in a way that helps our clients and helps our helps our business and our employees. That's again one very good thing you said was you know you have to be ready culturally structurally and organizationally which is a very important thing that you know we have

experienced while you know carrying on transformation for our partners is sometimes they're culturally there but structurally they don't have the bandwidth you know sometimes organizationally so I think that's also very practical insight actually

well and everything I just said is much more easier said than done they're not easy for sure Right.

True.

And because it invol involves a fluidity that can be hard for people, right? Hard for organizations and hard for people because it it reflects a need for change and that can be hard for

great. No, I think but yeah, knowing this will give us, you know, our viewers that path that okay, you know, I need or I need to prepare on these three aspects and sometimes you might be underprepared, but if you're working in that direction, eventually I think things tend to catch up. All right, that being said, one last question from me. I

Is it an easy one, Ally? Is it an easy or a hard one?

I think this one will be an easy one for you. You know, again,

all right.

I This is my best part of the question. you know one advice if you have to leave me and the viewers with what would be about you know being successful in you know life or transforming in your life or your company or anyway one advice I'm sure there are many but you know if you have to give us one advice that this is what you should follow

that's your easy question that's an easy that's that's not an easy question [laughter] that's a very hard question but it's a great question. Um, you know, I I I think you need to be passionate about what you're doing and enjoy what you're doing, right? It's interesting sometimes I'm talking to employees in particular where I can just see somebody doesn't enjoy what they're doing or, you know, isn't happy in the role and I think it's natural that one tends to do better at something they enjoy and they're passionate about. Every job's going to have aspects that you don't enjoy. you're not passionate. Not and not just

you asked about life, not just every job like I love being a father. Love it. Do I love picking up my kids clothes? No. You know, but you know, it's it's you know, I think gravitating towards your passions because I think that helps one do better and recognizing where one's strengths and weaknesses are because we all have both. And you know, finding ways to, you know, supplement the weaknesses and recognizing those which is which I think is fine. So

see I told you this film is going to be easy one because I knew you know I have genuinely learned a lot from you from our conversations and I knew that you would say that it's a tough one but you know you will give us a very good practical thought such a beautiful thought and such a good analogy you know that what would you love more than your kids but there are aspects to being a father that you don't like still

right right most of it I like but yeah you're awful

of course that's the it's the best thing I you know my daughter is just 3 and a half years old. So, you know, I'm a comparatively a new father and you know, it's the most amazing thing that happened to me. So,

undoubted there are aspects to it that sometimes, you know, you wish did not exist.

So, all right. Thank you so much, Mark, for you know, sharing your wisdom, your thoughts, your, you know, ideas, especially your time. I know you are a very very busy you know leader, but it is very helpful. appreciate you know the all the insights. Thank you so much

Alik. Thank you. Thank you for your uh partnership and your friendship and I look forward to continuing this discussion in person.

Likewise. Thank you so much.

Okay. Thank you. A bite.